I notice (as does Elisa Sand) that included on Tuesday's Lake County Commission agenda is discussion of Vital Link and the 58th National Day of Prayer. I'm thinking, what's to discuss? You want to pray, pray. Local government has no necessary or proper role in that.
Ah, but this is the Dobsons at work again. Their faith apparently isn't strong enough to stand on its own. They must seek government support to enshrine their beliefs in laws and proclamations and legal assistance to maintain their connection to God. Government support—wouldn't that make their beliefs socialist?
All this insecurity from folks in a country where religionists still outnumber non-religionists more than 6 to 1. Funny: I don't need government to make proclamations supporting my religious beliefs. I don't need the county commission to grant me permission to stage a demonstration of my secular humanism on the courthouse steps. I don't need the State Legislature to invite me to offer an invocation declaring that we have no one to rely on but ourselves and our worldly powers to solve our problems so let's get to work (although that would be fun). I just need government, on this issue, to leave me the heck alone.
Cory:
ReplyDeleteI'll still be praying for you.
May the Lord bless you and keep you. May He shine His light upon you.
Everything works towards God's plan. Your skepticism is just another piece of the puzzle.
Hunger, poverty, sex trade, domestic abuse, sexism, racism, unemployment, environmental hazards, consumerism, corporate greed,...
ReplyDeleteI humbly suggest my impiety should not qualify for anyone's list of top 10,000 "problems" to pray about... or actually work to solve.
You, Cory, are worthy of our thoughts and prayers as well as love.
ReplyDeleteThe list of world problems will never go away. Troubles have existed forever. I cannot fix them, but I can pray for the well-being of others.
I agree Anon 9:30/11:07.
ReplyDeleteIt's time for us to start praying to Apollo on a regular basis:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo
He can take care of our sick, help our agriculture, and enhance our arts programs!
Though, praying to Ares may be a better choice considering our continued wars:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ares
Comrade:
ReplyDeleteMost people wouldn't mind a few good thoughts going their way.
Tony brings up a relevant point: if the county is even talking about a day of prayer, will it be discussing all deities to whom such prayers might be addressed? And will it give equal recognition to the many people who do not engage in prayer?
ReplyDeleteIf prayer upsets you so much, then go get a lawyer and take your petition to the county commission and then up the line to the President for offending your beliefs.
ReplyDeleteI believe in tolerance, but should we tolerate the intolerable?
I'm with Cory on this one. Prayer is a private matter. Why would that be discussed at a county commission meeting? Seems very odd.
ReplyDeleteI would rather have them talk about our 7.2% unemployment rate.
ReplyDeleteThis question is no different than school districts not holding activities on Wednesdays or Sundays out of respect for religious activities. Why would a school district, a government entity, care about which day religious activities are held? Some churches are active on Saturdays. Should we compromise one against the other if we believe in separation of church and state? It seems to work fairly well most of the time, but when a rare crisis comes up like holding the final day of a state basketball tournament on a Sunday because Saturday had a snow storm, the churches have a fit.
ReplyDeleteI think it is really sad that we have to deny God to be politically correct.
ReplyDeleteI find the postings here very amusing.
ReplyDeleteHave any of you considered that the prayer group merely wants the Commission's permission to gather round the flag pole and say a prayer.
If any of you find that distasteful then perhaps you should start a drive to stop both the Memorial Day and the Flag Day services held on the lawn, because prayers are said then too.
Joseph G Thompson
Anon 10:58: What's really sad is that some people need government to affirm God for them. (Feel free to point to the text herein where I demand that you or anyone else "deny" God.)
ReplyDeleteJoseph -- do I need the county's permission to walk up to the flagpole at the courthouse and communicate with a deity of my choosing... or, as would be my preference, to stand there and talk to myself for a moment?
Cori,
ReplyDeleteThere is a difference between you, as an individual, standing on the Courthouse lawn, and an organized group.
I would question whether a group really needs permission to use the lawn, but common courtesy certainly dictates that you ask permission.
Perhaps before you get too harsh about the National Day of Prayer, you should read the link you posted in the orginal post.
By the way, neither do I consider myself to be a modern day Christian nor am I a member of any local church. I am however, what I consider to be a free thinker, with no agenda, and believe people should be free to act responsibly without government interference.
Joseph G Thompson
I forgot Tony,
ReplyDeleteThe organizers of the National Day of Prayer encourage you to pray to Appollo and Ares for the safety of our county if they are who you worship.
Joseph G Thompson
Joseph, I think we can agree on the importance of freedom of conscience. And I have no problem with people of all faiths (and lacks thereof) freely agreeing to share a day to take special notice of the importance of their beliefs.
ReplyDeleteBut having read the links from the original post, I can say the National Day of Prayer agitators make me nervous with what is a very clear quest to win government establishment of religion, preferably their avowedly Judeo-Christian religion.
It is not a day to high lite a particular religous belief but a day set aside by Congress to pray for our nation.
ReplyDeleteCongress says "say a prayer for America". If you want to pray to yourself for America, then do so.
I would suggest a prayer much like this,
Dear (what ever your name is)
Please keep America strong and safe.
Amen.
Say it at home, or with others on the Courthouse lawn.
Joseph G Thompson
"...not a day set aside to highlight a particular religious belief"
ReplyDeleteJoseph, I take you at your word. However, when I read the NDP website, I hear their inclusiveness as a sidebar at best to their main mission to promote Christianity. I guarantee they derive neither enthusiasm nor funding from pushing to promote Muslim, Hindu, or Zoroastrian rituals on public property. The NDP folks have even excluded Mormons from their activities. (Ask our states attorney what he thinks of that.)
But even your honest inclusiveness still poses the threat of establishing religion. If Congress says, "Say a prayer for America," they are asserting the idea that there is something to pray to. That Congressional urging to pray, to communicate with a deity, establishes religion. I don't think Congress (or the county) can even go that far.
So again, I'm not saying Mark Weismantel and his fellow Vital Linkers can't hold hands around the flag pole, or that the Hindu kids on campus can't come praise Vishnu in the same fashion. I just don't think the county has any place in affirming that activity.
I still agree with Cory. They are trying to make something of it.
ReplyDeleteIt is a great leap from allowing citizens the opportunity to use what is actually their lawn, too excercise their right of assembly and free expression to the thought
ReplyDeletethat the County Commission will soon insist that every one in Lake County be Christian or Jew.
Joseph G Thompson
Good point, Joseph: the courthouse grounds are our lawn, and I hope we all can use it for civil purposes. But I'm still wondering: does the County Commission have to give permission? If all we're talking about here is a public demonstration permit, then we don't have a problem. But do we even need a permit? If I muster some secular humanists and the bunch of us want to circle the flagpole and say stuff for a while, can we just spontaneously do that, or do we need a permit?
ReplyDeleteAgain Cory is right. Of course you could gather and do ring around the rosie if you wanted to, unless the mean groundskeeper got to you.
ReplyDeleteI know of nothing that would stop you from doing it. Like I said, common courtesy would dictate that you would ask if it would be Ok. Even the Clinton's advance team had the courtesy to ask the county and city permission to use the library or Courthouse lawn.
ReplyDeleteWould think if it was good enough for them to ask, then it's good enough for anyone to ask.
Joseph G Thompson
Anon 4:05
ReplyDeleteThe mean groudskeeper might get to you if you messed up the lawn.
Joseph G Thompson
Trust me on this one!
I will not bring my secular humanist friends over to tromp around the flagpole until the ground has firmed up... promise! :-)
ReplyDeleteCommon courtesy: I can live with that, Joseph. If the conversation at Tuesday's meeting is (Vital Link) "We're comin' to pray," and (commission) "Thanks for the warning; don't step on the flowers," no problem. If it goes beyond that—trouble!
See Cori,
ReplyDeleteA liberal(me) and a leftist like you can find common ground and agreement.
Now somebody has to explain to me why the politicians can't.
Joseph G Thompson
This should not even be an issue. Regardless of what Cory or any secular humanist or atheist or wahtever you want to call yourselves say, this nation was founded on the belief in God. He's (or she if you prefer) is mentioned in our founding documents. To say that we need or don't need permission to observe the National Day of Prayer is moot. And if you want to say your prayers or stomp around or whatever, feel free to do so and good luck in finding a few others to join you. You have no right to deny that right to others to observe a practice that has been occuring for quite awhile now and was never a question until lately.
ReplyDeleteThe majority of this nation still considers themselves Christian. If that bothers you, you are the one with the problem, not the majority. And it's time to get over it and get along.
Wasn't going to do this but it is so seldom I get to defend Cori, I just can't resist.Anon 5:12, this nation was not founded in a belief in God. It was founded with a fear of a government based on religion, IE the Church of England.Additionally we are a republic. In a republic, government exists to insure that the majority do not trample on the rights of the minorityCori, bless his soul, does at times see problems that don't exist. However, that said, he and we have an obligation, to speak up whenever he/we believes the rights of the minority are being threatened.The question here was not does anyone need permission from government to celebrate National Prayer Day, but how far should County government go in supporting that day.Government has a right to say, please observe National Prayer Day and to provide a place for that prayer to be said, but they have no right to say or to suggest that that prayer should be to the Christian/Jewish/Islamic God or any other secular Supreme Being.
ReplyDeleteI rarely agree with Cori, but I spent most of my adult life doing things that Cori wouldn,t approve of to make sure that he can voice his opinion without fear of reprisal.
God Bless Ya Cori, and one day you will realize that there is something bigger than us.
Joseph G Thompson
Joseph G Thompson
Sorry, Joe, our founders did have a belief in a Supreme Being or God.
ReplyDeleteHere are two quotes from the Declaration of Independence:
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights…"
"We, therefore, the Representatives of the united States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions…And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes, and our sacred Honor."
You are thinking of the first amendment which states "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..."
Yes, they were careful not to establish a state religion, but they definitely believed in God.
Whether Washington, Jefferson, Madison, Hamilton, et al. believed in God is less relevant to the legal question here than their very obvious care, written into the First Amendment, not to establish a state religion. Whatever religious beliefs our current commissioners may personally hold, they can not in constitutionally make any official call for citizens to observe a national day of prayer. Even following Joseph's inclusivity would still establish religion.
ReplyDelete[And Joseph, anything you've done in your adult life to protect my freedom of speech meets with my hearty approval and gratitude. Thanks!]
Anon 12:35
ReplyDeleteThe Declaration Of Independence and the Constiution are two different documents.
The Declaration of Independence was meant to appeal to the emotion of the colonists.
The Constitution was meant to appeal to reason.
They without a dobut believed in a Supreme Being, but do not mistake belief for an insistance that everyone believe as they did.
Joseph G Thompson