Price reminds us that we must not equate Christianity with prejudice. He cites the example set by Pastor Martin Nussbaum:
The other day at the school board meeting I met the wonderful Pastor Martin Nussbaum of Rapid City, who told the assembled at the Jan 7 Rapid City School Board meeting that he felt "ashamed" when he received an invitation from the South Dakota Family Policy Council urging him to push the school board to NOT protect LGBT people.
He's been a long time voice in support of Christians that don't agree with Focus On The Family's contention that The Gay™ is a threat to their faith!
Anyway, the news is that Martin is interested in help start a LGBT-friendly church -- they may meet at the BHCFE, it's still in the drawing-board stages. But it's a good thing since the Met Church in Rapid City folded more than five years ago now, and this was a big loss [Curtis Price, "A New LGBT Ministry in Rapid City?" Robbinsdale Radical, 2010.01.23].
Long time voice... indeed! Martin graduated a year ahead of me from Madison HS. He was a fellow debater and thespian. Even in high school, he was an outspoken advocate of strong and tolerant Christianity. I still remember his letter to the editor telling off the local fundagelicals who were busy striking poses over Martin Scorcese's The Last Temptation of Christ. The West Twin Theater had advertised with a whiff of self-righteousness that it would not be showing Scorcese's film. Martin scolded his fellow believers, noting that his God was strong enough to withstand any piece of celluloid. Martin's example back then helped me move away from my juvenile rejection of religion to a recognition that believers can be intelligent and compassionate allies in the fight for justice (not to mention good company at breakfast).
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An intriguing Google twist: Do not confuse Pastor Martin Nussbaum with L. Martin Nussbaum, who was the lawyer for New Life Church in Colorado Springs when Ted Haggard revealed his own tolerance for homosexuality.
For ignoring God's clear condemnation of homosexual behavior and for encouraging people in their sin, Mr. Nussbaum is going to be in for a tough time on Judgment Day, unless he gets right before then.
ReplyDelete(James 3:1, Matthew 18:6)
We can always count on Bob for bad preaching. Martin is an ordained pastor, standing up for the oppressed, hoping to bring them the Word of the Lord... and Bob proof-texts him straight to Hell.
ReplyDeleteJon Stewart does better scripture than Bob.
You're kinda cute for a fatboy, Bob; I'll bet you're a moaner.
ReplyDeleteWant to hook up?
Jeremiah 14:14
ReplyDeleteThen the LORD said unto me, The prophets prophesy lies in my name: I sent them not, neither have I commanded them, neither spake unto them: they prophesy unto you a false vision and divination, and a thing of nought, and the deceit of their heart.
As a sweetly smiling Rev. Dale Bartcher, SDFPC pastor-relations political operative, said at the RC School Board meeting on Jan 21: said "this isn't about the sexual orientation thing, it's about keeping it to the "Basic Six".
Uh huh.
Shaka, when the walls fell. Kiazi's children, their faces wet. Zinda, his face black, his eyes red. The beast of Tanagra. Kiteo, beneath MoMoteh. Rai and Jiri at Lungha. Socath, his eyes uncovered. Uzani, his army with fists open. Uzani, his army with fists closed. Darmok and Jalad at Tanagra. Mirab, with sails unfurled.
ReplyDeleteDarmok and Jalad on the ocean.
That's right... I'm trying to communicate with Robok.
ReplyDeleteGay teen suicide rates are high. They need to hear in very clear language sexual orientation doesn't matter regardless of the ignorant people that cloak themselves with their own hate-filled version of religion. You just want to tell these kids don't listen to them, you're fine, it'll all get better. I wonder how many people they've helped kill. What would a just God say about that?
ReplyDeleteSo Cory, since you are an atheist, why does you theological opinion matter on this at all?
ReplyDelete"You're kinda cute for a fatboy, Bob; I'll bet you're a moaner.
ReplyDeleteWant to hook up?"
So that is the kind of comments you want? Personal attacks?
This is what keeps driving me back here. So go ahead and ban me so that you and your friends can bash those Christians you disagree with, without interruption. All that will prove is that your beliefs can't withstand challenge.
Cory is doing far more to educate readers than you are with your own panoply of apocryphal metaphors, Steve.
ReplyDeleteIf only you were as passionate about Monsanto's role in the pending environmental cascade.
Kiteo, his eyes closed.
Cory,
ReplyDeleteWhat does Monsanto have to do with this thread, and again, do you have any problems with Kurtz's inappropriate comment directed at Bob Ellis?
Monsanto is God's right-hand man (if you get my drift) in South Dakota, Steve; you can read scripture right off the label of a jug of Roundup.
ReplyDeleteYour photo and body language suggests that you live alone. Do you?
Larry are you related to Paul?
ReplyDelete"For ignoring God's clear condemnation of homosexual behavior and for encouraging people in their sin, Mr. Nussbaum is going to be in for a tough time on Judgment Day, unless he gets right before then."
ReplyDeleteSir,
You seem to be completely clueless as to the type of person Martin Nussbaum is. I am not God, but I find it difficult to believe someone that has done as much unmeasurable good in the world as Martin will be turned away from heaven. If you knew a homosexual person personally, you would understand how hurtful your comments really are. Your ability to pick through scripture in order to hate people you do not even know is shameful. The next generation of South Dakotans are beginning to realize how outdated and completely obnoxious your beliefs are. Hopefully, you will get a chance to read the good parts of the Bible that preach of loving your brothers and sisters. Until then, on behalf of all the gay and lesbian people that have been forced out of this state by people like you, keep your hateful rhetoric to yourself.
Justin, it doesn't matter what "kind of person" Mr. Nussbaum is; what matters is whether he has been born again as a follower of Jesus Christ. Isaiah 64:6 says our best deeds are like filthy rags in God's sight. A person could out-do Mother Theresa for good deeds, but if they aren't born again, their eternity will be spent in hopeless separation from God.
ReplyDeleteWhether Mr. Nussbaum has been born again and has just strayed from the faith in this and/or other areas, or was never born again in the first place, I don't know. Even if he is a genuine Christian, he will still be judged for undermining God's word in this way, just as I will be judged for any errors I commit.
I know and have known plenty of homosexuals, but knowing a homosexual doesn't change the truth that their sexual behavior is a sin, not in the slightest. Do you think right and wrong somehow magically change when you know the person who's committing the sin?
I would rather hurt their feelings now and hope they may eventually see the error of their ways, than to smile like an idiot and pat them on the back on their way to Hell. Watching someone walk into danger without warning them is not "loving" them. Ezekiel 3:18-20 doesn't have good things to say for the person who fails to warn someone from spiritual danger.
And I don't "pick through" Scripture to asertain that homosexual behavior is a violation of God's design for the expresion of human sexuality, and that it is a sin that God disapproves of. God makes it clear in both Old and New Testaments that his design for human sexuality is to be expressed between a man and a woman in marriage, and he makes it clear in both Old and New Testaments that homosexual behavior is immoral. It really could not be more clear; I suggest you read this:
http://www.dakotavoice.com/2008/05/for-the-bible-tells-me-so-the-real-story-part-2/
Finally, I'll keep my attempts to help people find the abundant life and avoid Hell (what you call "hateful rhetoric") to myself when people stop spreading the lie that evil is good.
"Watching someone walk into danger without warning them is not "loving" them. Ezekiel 3:18-20 doesn't have good things to say for the person who fails to warn someone from spiritual danger."
ReplyDeleteFinally real truth said on Madville Times. And as I said, heterosexual immorality is also sin and spiritual danger. Hopefully one or two of Cory's readers will understand that for the first time. If so, then praise God.
Bob,
ReplyDeleteI appreciate your point of view, and I am glad you are able to express your concern that people should obey strict Christian doctrine.
I grew up in the Catholic church, and am constantly surrounded by the paradoxes of loving your brothers and sisters and hating homosexuality. Once I discovered the Bible was edited by Constantine in the Council of Nicaea, who just so happened to not be a Christian, I found it difficult to believe everything professed in the Bible should be followed closely. The only caveat I do have is that the Bible is a wonderful book to teach the benefits of loving one another from. The scripture dictating the hatred of others is OBVIOUSLY a product of Constantine's own naivety and sinfulness.
I would consider myself a pragmatist or possibly even a realist. In the "real world," these sinners that you presume to know, are people with different wants and needs. Some of these people would gratefully give up there lifestyles, if it would allow them to live a life filled with the grace of "God." Realistically, living a life approved by the Emperor Constantine, can cause great harm and terrible depression.
I apologize for considering you a liar, even though I do not know you. If you really knew a gay person, you would understand their struggles with homosexuality is not a choice at all. I knew my brother was gay before he had the ability to want or need a person of the same or different sex. Hormones did not create his homosexuality, "God" did.
The only reason I condemn your beliefs is because it causes great harm to all of "God's" people. The beliefs you profess to believe in have caused many homosexuals to commit suicide and have caused them unbelievable social and physical harm.
Since the well-being of homosexuals is of probably little concern to you, I might also explain how your beliefs are not beneficial to heterosexuals as well. Homosexuals are some of the most talented people in the world. The confidence and persistence homosexuals are forced to find allows them to be extremely talented in all facets of life. These talented individuals contribute to societies that accept them for who they are, instead of the societies in which they are born in. I can tell you first hand South Dakota is worse off for their discrimination of homosexuals.
If the readers of this blog would be so gracious as to allow me to veer away from my pragmatism, I would like to predict the future of public opinion.
The discrimination of homosexuals will be known as the last unsuccessful genocide allowed in America.
Justin, you have been lied to and misled. Neither Constantine nor the Council of Nicaea "edited" the Bible. The Bible as we see it today is the same as it was in the First Century, and even older for the Old Testament texts. The Dead Sea Scrolls and countless other ancient manuscripts exists to illustrate this. This is easily verified--and has been verifed by countless scholars. It's a shame that someone has lied to you.
ReplyDeleteGod didn't give the Bible to humanity to make them feel good or to allow them to live their lives as they pleased...which is simply another way of saying, "to live their lives in clear contradiction to God's plan for humanity, and in contradiction to God's character. God gave us the Bible to help us understand HIS character, and how we are to live our lives. God is not obligated to accept whatever his fallen and sinful creations want to do; rather, we as his creations are obligated to bring ourselves into conformity to his way. The Bible does not nor has it ever "dictated hatred" of others; it simply tells us what God says is right and what God says is wrong.
God most assuredly did not create someone to be homosexual. The very biological function of the male and female sex organs clearly indicate that they were to be used in a heterosexual manner. God also makes it very clear in both Old and New Testaments that we are to express our sexuality in a heterosexual manner, within the confines of the marital relationship. Homosexual behavior is simply one of the many forms in which fallen, sinful human beings depart from God's intent for how we are to live our lives.
The well-being of homosexuals is of great concern to me, as is the welfare of all human beings; it is also God's greatest concern. It is precisely for that reason that God took the time to tell us that homosexual behavior is contrary to our well being, as is heterosexual behavior expressed outside of marriage. The best way for any of us to see that our own well being is taken care of is to act in the manner in which we were created to live. As if the Bible weren't enough, all the clinical studies and data indicate that human beings are the happiest and healthiest when we express our sexuality as God intended; any deviations always bring physical and emotional hazards.
Hopefully you will someday be able to see beyond the politically correct poison to which you've been exposed, and will be able to see that God (and I) want what's best for all human beings, for us all to be our healthiest, and to eventually be able to live with God for eternity. When we reject God's truth for our lives, we reject the most healthy path for our lives, and we reject God's invitation to live in perfection with him in the afterlife.
It doesn't have to be that way, but we have to live on our Creator's terms, not our own sinful terms.
Bob,
ReplyDeleteI only intend to quickly respond to a couple of your comments.
In response to your Constantine argument, countless studies have not verified your view. In fact, Constantine's impact upon the Bible is now being taught at the university level. We should both do some more research about the evolution of the Bible. Hopefully, it will solidify your faith in "God's word."
Are you trying to say straight people are happier than gay people? Hopefully, you can cite a source that says a gay person living a heterosexual lifestyle is happier. That seems like a pretty outlandish claim.
Thanks for the dialogue. Hopefully, it allows both of us to look at the world from another point of view.
There are a myriad of lies being taught at university level, so that statement doesn't impress me. The last book of the Bible was written more than 200 years before Constantine became emperor, and there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that he "edited" it. I'd recommend you stop listening to people who have a personal interest in discrediting moral authority for anything at all reliable concerning the Bible.
ReplyDeleteIt's also pretty obvious that people living heterosexually are more happy and fulfilled than people living homosexually. Dozens of studies of various types and sources all find this to be true, and many studies find that homosexuals have far higher rates of depression, anxiety, substance abuse, and suicide. These are not the marks of happy or fulfilled people.
Human beings weren't created to behave homosexually, and we can never be fulfilled and live up to all our potential, all the good that God has for us as long as we live counter to the way God intended us to live.
Justin & Bob,
ReplyDeleteI enjoyed reading your conversation.
How convenient for Bob to portray everyone who disagrees with him as a Godless liar. So much easier than actually loving thy neighbor.
ReplyDelete... or working to live together in civil society, to stop discrimination that prevents fellow citizens from living free and full lives, and to solve practical problems.
ReplyDelete"How convenient for Bob to portray everyone who disagrees with him as a Godless liar."
ReplyDeleteCory, That is a false accusation. Bob and I disagree, but he never called me a Godless liar. Perhaps your conscience is bothering you. God gave that to you, so blame Him instead of Bob.
"or working to live together in civil society"
ReplyDeleteDo you consider larry kurtz's comments on this thread civil?
And remember, John Locke, who was involved in both social contract and natural law development, said atheists should not be tolerated. It is far past the time that we let atheists run everything, specifically the education systems.